Its happening now.....

[Nick]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trading_Places

blast! you've discovered the secret code!

[iant333]

All you do is critique the capitalist system, yet provide NO solutions to the problem. You simply repeat the same nonsensical bleeding-heart drivel that I have heard too many times. I'm sure you're a big fan of The Jungle by Upton Sinclair and A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn, considering your main points are incredibly similar to theirs.


First off, wealthy people are taxed proportionately higher than everyone else. Why do that? Please justify why successful people should have their earned money taken away from them just because they earned more than everyone else. Why strive to earn as much money as you can when it ends up being taken away from you?



I'm not interested in delving into the progressive area of the American economy. BUT, it was during this time when mass production was introduced and adopted which made products affordable for middle class Americans. The Model T Ford for example. That era laid the foundation for the United States to grow into a superpower. It was the golden age of industry and manufacturing. Not everyone was as miserable as you make them out to be.



The New Deal and Keynesian economics are responsible for the sad state of the federal budget today. It prompted INCREDIBLE gov't spending, which does not work in reality. Unemployment was up to almost 20% during the 30s after the New Deal was implemented, that really worked out well for the lower class. You can't tax businesses into the ground, because then they can't pay to hire people, and you have rampant unemployment, which, because of the policies modeled after the New Deal, everyone who manages to keep their job, now has to support all these newly unemployed people.



These same restrictions led to the creation of strong labor unions which have essentially singlehandedly ruined the American economy. Unions have drove all the great manufacturing companies into bankruptcy or to leave their main locations to go elsewhere for cheaper labor. This is because people who work on assembly lines think they are entitled to make 100k a year, which is wrong.




If you told me today that the United States would return to a manufacturing based economy, I would be ecstatic. Manufacturing means jobs, increase in GDP, and a strong trade surplus. And China isn't a capitalist state. Its a communist state with some capitalism beginning to mix in. The Chinese gov't plans the nations economy and allocates all essential resources. Its still the main player in large Chinese industry. Hardly a capitalist state.





First off, no one measures the strength of a nations economy by per capita income. GDP is the standard measure of economic strength and Switzerland is 19th in the world with a GDP of about 500,000m. Whereas the US is 2nd to the EU with a GDP of 14,250,000m. Also, Switzerland isn't in the EU.

This is the real world, where people win and people lose, and its up to you to look out for yourself.

Solutions to the problem? You and I already brought it up, tax the rich, before the Bush tax cuts expired tax rates for the highest income earners are the lowest they have been in 50 years. I know it sounds so reprehensible to you to take more money away from these people, those who make more in a day than some hardworking people will make in their entire lifetime, and even after tax day, they are still left with millions upon millions.

Recently the Forbes list of the 400 wealthiest (which takes $1 billion to qualify for the list) saw their wealth increase by 8% while the rest of us saw a decrease of 2.8%. It seems only logical to me that those who benefit most from our system should shoulder the most burden, I mean these people arent going to be destitute here. The amount of money that these people make isnt even comprehensible to the average American. The only skills the majority of these people have is the ability to steal billions of dollars then convince the majority of Americans it is in THEIR OWN best interest to lower their taxes.

If lowering taxes on the wealthy was the best solution for middle class prosperity then clearly the Reagan and Bush years should be models of Job creation, wage increases and better standards of living... but they werent, actually quite the opposite, te rich got richer and the poor got poorer. But some people are still convinced the getting "trickled on" is in their best interest.

The wealthiest Americans heavy hand in our government isnt that hard too see. For example the push to permanently eliminate the Estate Tax. Why should we support that? Unless we win the Powerball lottery, we will never have to worry about paying the Estate Tax when we die. Under the old law, you weren't taxed unless your estate exceeded $3.5 million or $7 million if married. Some cleverly renamed this to the Death Tax and have many people believing they will be subject to the tax, afterall we all die.

As far as labor unions, I will agree that they have gotten a bit out of hand. I will actually say that they probably did contribute to outsourcing, however the other countries that are receiving these jobs will go through the same process we did, people will only let themselves get fucked for so long.

I can't believe you just called China a Capitalist Nation. Your Credibility is now at an all time Low.

I have nothing else to add as Nick has steered this ship to win.

Huh? Private ownership of companies, private investment, sounds alot like capitalism to me.

And i'm not even the only one.

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...ina+capitalism

[HeavyMetal]

those who make more in a day than some hardworking people will make in their entire lifetime.

I still feel its bold to categorize "the wealthy" as people who do not work hard or endure general hardship in one way or another for their wealth.

I would say the majority of wealthy people are not that way just because of trust funds and the like.

Someone who makes a LOT of money doing what they do should not have a negative connotation or asterisk next to their name.

[Buffalo Phil]

You're right, what am I thinking. China is 100% capitalist now. No more communism at all!

[iant333]

You're right, what am I thinking. China is 100% capitalist now. No more communism at all!

They have a nice mix going on.

[Tom]

this thread grinds my gears.

if people werent fuckin up, the gov't wouldnt have a need to monitor who does what on the internet.

again, when it comes to the constitution, WHEN DID COMMON SENSE GO OUT THE WINDOW???

[Buffalo Phil]

Like we have a nice Mix of socialism ruining our once nice Republic. Buit it's okay, as long as the weathy get their fucking pants taxed off their legs, it doesn't matter!

[iant333]

I still feel its bold to categorize "the wealthy" as people who do not work hard or endure general hardship in one way or another for their wealth.

I would say the majority of wealthy people are not that way just because of trust funds and the like.

Someone who makes a LOT of money doing what they do should not have a negative connotation or asterisk next to their name.

The issue I have isnt that these people have so much, or even how they got it particularly.

It is is that people who work hard, as I see every day (not all lower and working class people are lazy and just collect a benefit check) dont have the money for basic necesities.

Call it "bleeding heart" but I find it incomprehensible that people are having these issue then people like Ben Stein ( http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...n6881440.shtml ) have the nerve to complain about putting in a few more bucks.

He isnt getting punished, the real punishment is for those who work all week to come home and still have to take on debt to afford a basic lifestyle.

[Tom]

its the lazy fucks that squeeze every last drop out of the system that are fucking it up.

yes, some people work hard. and if theyre on welfare, then they deserve it.

a LOT of people dont work hard, are on welfare, and dont deserve it. the system would work well if those wasted funds were directed properly.

[HeavyMetal]

The issue I have isnt that these people have so much, or even how they got it particularly.

It is is that people who work hard, as I see every day (not all lower and working class people are lazy and just collect a benefit check) dont have the money for basic necesities.

Call it "bleeding heart" but I find it incomprehensible that people are having these issue then people like Ben Stein ( http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...n6881440.shtml ) have the nerve to complain about putting in a few more bucks.

He isnt getting punished, the real punishment is for those who work all week to come home and still have to take on debt to afford a basic lifestyle.

celebrities are another category IMO, and i would say even some of them work harder than the average joe to achieve the money they do (it can be argued obviously some are grossly overpaid)

if you have a lot of money, and have to pay a lot of money as a result of having that money, i would call that equally as punishing when it comes down to it.

Dont fault someone for finding the way to make the money they do....

is it sad joe citizen comes home to debt after working his fawking ass off? absolutely. is that truly anyones fault? not really. anyone in America has the potential to make money, and lots of it, doing something...whether it be by luck, work, circumstances, or a combo of the three

[iant333]

is it sad joe citizen comes home to debt after working his fawking ass off? absolutely. is that truly anyones fault? not really. anyone in America has the potential to make money, and lots of it, doing something...whether it be by luck, work, circumstances, or a combo of the three

My main point is I think there should be a cushion for those who get really screwed "...whether it be by luck, work, circumstances, or a combo of the three".


And i'm just gonna mention I actually started this for a assignment for my American Government class but i'll keep going I guess because I like discusing stuff.

Supposed to either have a recorded in some way debate about a topic of your choosing. Saw the thread and was like hmmm.... I'll see if I can get people to start talking about something.

[Nick]

Solutions to the problem? You and I already brought it up, tax the rich, before the Bush tax cuts expired tax rates for the highest income earners are the lowest they have been in 50 years. I know it sounds so reprehensible to you to take more money away from these people, those who make more in a day than some hardworking people will make in their entire lifetime.

You keep claiming these people don't deserve their money and it should be taken away from them. WHY? How does taxing everyone solve the problem, it only gives money to the government to spend on ridiculous programs. You still haven't given everyone a reason as to why you think wealthy people didn't work hard for their money. I guess your concept of "work" is different from most people.

Recently the Forbes list of the 400 wealthiest (which takes $1 billion to qualify for the list) saw their wealth increase by 8% while the rest of us saw a decrease of 2.8%. It seems only logical to me that those who benefit most from our system should shoulder the most burden, I mean these people arent going to be destitute here. The amount of money that these people make isnt even comprehensible to the average American. The only skills the majority of these people have is the ability to steal billions of dollars then convince the majority of Americans it is in THEIR OWN best interest to lower their taxes.

Are you aware that 40 American billionaires have pledged to donate at least 51% of their wealth to charities at the time of their deaths? Man, they sound like monsters. And for that statistic you provided, did it ever occur to you that maybe those people are pretty goddamn good at managing their money, probably a key reason as to why they have so much of it. And you say that they steal billions of dollars, how so? Where is the theft? Bill Gates and Warren Buffet? Clearly thieves. Their companies haven't provided jobs for anyone or improved society in any way.

If lowering taxes on the wealthy was the best solution for middle class prosperity then clearly the Reagan and Bush years should be models of Job creation, wage increases and better standards of living... but they werent, actually quite the opposite, te rich got richer and the poor got poorer.

First off, the 1980s were an incredible success for the American economy. The only downside was the increase in the national debt. But other than that, the 80s saw increases in employment, GDP, and the poverty level stayed consistent. This sense of optimism continued into the 1990s. Bush's main problem was the fact that he spent too much money. He was also huge into economic regulation, which is right up your alley.

The wealthiest Americans heavy hand in our government isnt that hard too see. For example the push to permanently eliminate the Estate Tax. Why should we support that? Unless we win the Powerball lottery, we will never have to worry about paying the Estate Tax when we die. Under the old law, you weren't taxed unless your estate exceeded $3.5 million or $7 million if married. Some cleverly renamed this to the Death Tax and have many people believing they will be subject to the tax, afterall we all die.

Why the fuck should people be taxed when they die? What sense does that make? Same goes for the capital gains tax which I'm sure your in favor of. Made a smart investment and made money? Well, the government deserves their cut. Come on.

As far as labor unions, I will agree that they have gotten a bit out of hand. I will actually say that they probably did contribute to outsourcing, however the other countries that are receiving these jobs will go through the same process we did, people will only let themselves get fucked for so long.

A bit out of hand? They killed industry in America, and in effect, shot themselves in the foot.

Huh? Private ownership of companies, private investment, sounds alot like capitalism to me.

Capitalism in china is limited to small and medium sized businesses, which in the global scheme of things is really irrelevant. The government still decides how exactly that country operates.

[Buffalo Phil]

My main point is I think there should be a cushion for those who get really screwed "...whether it be by luck, work, circumstances, or a combo of the three".

Depends on how that Debt comes into one's lap. If you create the debt yourself by spending money into a hole, then that is your own fault and you should be at the helm of receiving those consequences.

I do not feel bad for anyone who takes out loans to which they cannot pay.

[Tom]

My main point is I think there should be a cushion for those who get really screwed

sounds like welfare. too many people fucking it up for everyone else.

using food stamps while your oops-baby's momma has a gucci bag and brand name clothes and your full time job is pwning n00bs on xbox

or

working overtime in a shitty job that other people are too proud to work while your family legitimately pays for food wearing walmart clothes and forgoing the xbox this christmas because you work too hard to go on food stamps

[BOX]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but here is a quick summary of what has happened at the company I've been with for the past 5 years.
http://www.spartech.com/

2007 - $1.4 B in revenue +34 M profit
2008 - $1.3 B in revenue -192 M loss
2009 - $900 M in revenue +8 M profit
2010 - not looking good...

New CEO in early 08, who in 08, 09, and 10 was earning $600,000 per year with a 1M dollar bonus every year.

For 9 months of 09 there was a company wide 12% pay cut, which is the only way we made a profit that year. So... The top 20 people in the company were driving us into the ground making a minimum of $200,000 per year with a minimum of $350,000 in bonuses per year, while the 1,000 other people at the company making between minimum wage to $100,000 per year suffered.

The CEO was just fired and probably given a multi million dollar severance deal for driving the company into the ground because him and 20 people at corporate are insanely overpaid. While everyone else working at the company had the 12% pay cut, and of course no salary increase since the 07/08 holiday season. Oh yea... The other 19 fuck ups are still at corporate and what do you know... they named one of the pirate hooking thieves CEO.

I'm not sure how this isn't illegal, but it should be illegal. Without laws to regulate this shit... at a different company who says it isn't 5 people fucking 5,000 or 10,000 or 40,000 people out of their money.

Have a look at the fortune top 100 list.
http://www.forbes.com/wealth/forbes-400
4 out of the top 10 have the last name Walton aka Walmart.
Over 80 billion between the 4 of them.
They have 2,100,000 employees.
I am willing to bet 2,000,000 of them earn $75,000 or less a year.

From the new Wall Street movie...
Gordon Gekko "Someone reminded me I once said "Greed is good". Now it seems it's legal."