Its happening now.....

[Buffalo Phil]

I know why you said it and it's still no less of an asinine comment.

When the government no longer trusts its citizens, the government takes steps to broaden its power, turning citizens into subjects, and the needle of rule leans towards Socialism.

[iant333]

I know why you said it and it's still no less of an asinine comment.

When the government no longer trusts its citizens, the government takes steps to broaden its power, turning citizens into subjects, and the needle of rule leans towards Socialism.

Socialism doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as totalitarianism. Many countries that self describe themselves as socialist (I.E. Northern Europe) are usually fairly relaxed on social issues such as privacy.

I have been to a couple "socialist" countries and they aren't even slightly reminiscent of a George Orwell novel.

[Buffalo Phil]

Socialism is a form of government as is totalitarianism. We never even brought that up. Where did that even come from?

[iant333]

When the government no longer trusts its citizens, the government takes steps to broaden its power, turning citizens into subjects

That sounds like what you are talking about.

[Buffalo Phil]

And you really think that Socialism doesn't turn its citizens into subjects?

Do not confuse a Republic with Socialism.

[iant333]

And you really think that Socialism doesn't turn its citizens into subjects?

Do not confuse a Republic with Socialism.

I think the big barrier here is when I think of socialism I think of like Finland or Sweden which has like partially government subsidized healthcare and somewhat restrictive regulations on large companies, definately considered "socialist". Which honestly I don't see the big fuss over, it seems to work out just as shittily as the system we have, the only real difference is who you are a subject to.

Not Soviet Russia or China 25+ years ago.

Yes there is a big difference.

[Buffalo Phil]

I think the big barrier here is when I think of socialism I think of like Finland or Sweden which has like partially government subsidized healthcare and somewhat restrictive regulations on large companies, definately considered "socialist". Which honestly I don't see the big fuss over, it seems to work out just as shittily as the system we have, the only real difference is who you are a subject to.

Not Soviet Russia or China 25+ years ago.

Yes there is a big difference.

Regardless of why you keep comparing socialism to totalitarianism and communism is beyond me, I still think that in a socialist government, the government takes it upon itself to make decisions for the people, which is not what a government should do. A government should protect the people and be an spine to upholding whichever constitution it is governed by. The people are the heart, mind and soul of a country.

I believe right now that America has become a socialist country because we are no longer citizens, we are subjects to an overly powerful, federal government that prides itself in making decisions for us.

[iant333]

Regardless of why you keep comparing socialism to totalitarianism and communism is beyond me, I still think that in a socialist government, the government takes it upon itself to make decisions for the people, which is not what a government should do. A government should protect the people and be an spine to upholding whichever constitution it is governed by. The people are the heart, mind and soul of a country.

I believe right now that America has become a socialist country because we are no longer citizens, we are subjects to an overly powerful, federal government that prides itself in making decisions for us.

The reason I'm comparing them is pretty obvious, because the one gentleman earlier on said that the new government internet surveillance program was socialist.

I said no not really socialist. The reason being is that socialism has very little if nothing to do with tight social controls, mostly just regulation of markets and the economy. Socialism has much more to do with a distrust of unregulated free markets than any distrust of it's citizens, so my question is why are YOU agreeing that this policy is reminiscent of socialism? I see no correlation.

And I agree with your vision of government to an extent. They should protect the people and do nothing more, but power is not always derived from the government. Sometimes there are large businesses/corporations (I.E. Investment Banks) that fuck the country just as badly as a government. That's what socialism was thought up to fix, not due to any distrust of regular everyday citizens.

And what is happening in our country today is not socialism, it's just giving rich executives and investors handout's in order to keep their jobs and to keep investors happy. It's actually the very opposite, stealing the tax dollars of the middle class to give to the rich whereas socialism in theory should be quite the reverse.

The actual original issue doesn't really even matter, whether anyone wants to label wiretapping and surveillance as "socialist" doesn't really make much difference. But I think it makes someone sound somewhat ignorant since that seems to be a synonym for evil these days even though it makes no sense.

[Nick]

Ian, it sounds as though the concept of socialism doesnt bother you.

[iant333]

Ian, it sounds as though the concept of socialism doesnt bother you.

The concept doesn't for the most part, I believe people should have help when their lives get fucked up for circumstances outside their control (Medical Emergency, Unemployment, etc...).

What does bother me is people being rewarded for their idiocy such as buying out underwater mortgages and buying up failed companies. And obviously the supposed totalitarian "socialism" of countries like Russia and older China.

Why, does that really bother you.

[Buffalo Phil]

Regulation of the market and the economy by a government is socialism.

Why is that hard to comprehend?

[Nick]

The concept doesn't for the most part, I believe people should have help when their lives get fucked up for circumstances outside their control (Medical Emergency, Unemployment, etc...).

What does bother me is people being rewarded for their idiocy such as buying out underwater mortgages and buying up failed companies.

Why, does that really bother you.

Your argument just highlighted the semi-reasonable components of democratic socialism, while at the same time completely dismissed the other side of the coin. You can't have both. But yes, socialism does bother me, people should learn how to plan ahead and take care of themselves.

[iant333]

Regulation of the market and the economy by a government is socialism.

Why is that hard to comprehend?

I just agreed with you.

However, wiretapping is not a market regulation.

[Buffalo Phil]

The concept doesn't for the most part, I believe people should have help when their lives get fucked up for circumstances outside their control (Medical Emergency, Unemployment, etc...).

What does bother me is people being rewarded for their idiocy such as buying out underwater mortgages and buying up failed companies.

Why, does that really bother you.

It's called Insurance. You can choose to buy it, and you used to be able to choose to not buy it, but the Government decided that we simply aren't smart enough to make that decision, so they made it for us.

I just agreed with you.

However, wiretapping is not a market regulation.

I don't even know what the hell you are saying anymore.

Do you think wiretapping citizens is socialism, Yes or No.

[iant333]

Your argument just highlighted the semi-reasonable components of democratic socialism, while at the same time completely dismissed the other side of the coin. You can't have both. But yes, socialism does bother me, people should learn how to plan ahead and take care of themselves.

Why cant you have both? We don't but that doesn't mean you cant.