Its happening now.....

[HeavyMetal]

Bring back dubya just to quell the socialists and hippies

[Nick]

Why cant you have both? We don't but that doesn't mean you cant.

Because socialism is all of those things. You cant just say we're socialist when it comes to health care and social policy, but then we're capitalist when it comes to the economy. Its like saying Nazism is acceptable, just without the Holocaust part.

[Buffalo Phil]

We can't have both because some people cannot see the difference between an actual form of government and blatant corruption.

[iant333]

It's called Insurance. You can choose to buy it, and you used to be able to choose to not buy it, but the Government decided that we simply aren't smart enough to make that decision, so they made it for us.



I don't even know what the hell you are saying anymore.

Well I cant put it much simpler man, you and the other guy said wiretapping is socialist, I said not really. Wiretapping has nothing to do with market regulation, that's what Socialism is.


And the issue with insurance it is really only affordable to people who don't need it. A single mom for example is in no way able to afford health insurance for her children (Except in NY because we have child health plus, a "socialist" program allowing people to purchase low cost government health insurance for their kids). And there are many more situations beyond that cliched old example, I sometimes work part time for my parents at a law office and see people get fucked every day and have to file bankruptcy due to a medical emergency or some other major issue while they didn't have the means to buy insurance. These people aren't all lazy like the perception commonly is. There are hardworking, though perhaps not all that bright Americans who simply cant afford insurance of any kind.

And to sum it up kinda because i'm going to bed, I suppose the issue really comes down to whether you believe insurance is a right for everyone or a privilege only to be enjoyed by the wealthy. I think evryone should have the ability to not live in deathly fear of being laid off or getting ill.

[Buffalo Phil]

Then we agree to disagree and leave it at that. I'll continue to poison my mind with the belief that wiretapping and monitoring internet and phone lines is socialistic and you can do the opposite, regardless of how it affects the free market.

[Nick]

You keep bringing up health care as your only real argument for socialism because anyone who disagrees with you will look like an inconsiderate bastard.

But your idea of a splash of socialism here and there is not something that is "all good" as they say. Society is like a drug user, and their drugs of choice and government run programs. Give people free health care, and everyone's ecstatic for awhile, then the buzz wears off and they come back for more. And as they come back for a better fix, they begin to see the government as the sole provider for what they need, similar to the way a user sees his dealer.

As this process continues, the basic principles of self-preservation and survival of the fittest begin to degrade in the American mind, and the basic American ideals of staking one's own claim in society are lost. The spiral will continue until Americans have all become junkies, unable to exist without the government. It is at this point where the government becomes the true totalitarian state, but at that point, no one will notice or care.

So please, we don't live in a perfect world, bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people. Nothing will ever work as its intended.

[CumminsJeep]

Well I cant put it much simpler man, you and the other guy said wiretapping is socialist, I said not really. Wiretapping has nothing to do with market regulation, that's what Socialism is.


And the issue with insurance it is really only affordable to people who don't need it. A single mom for example is in no way able to afford health insurance for her children (Except in NY because we have child health plus, a "socialist" program allowing people to purchase low cost government health insurance for their kids). And there are many more situations beyond that cliched old example, I sometimes work part time for my parents at a law office and see people get fucked every day and have to file bankruptcy due to a medical emergency or some other major issue while they didn't have the means to buy insurance. These people aren't all lazy like the perception commonly is. There are hardworking, though perhaps not all that bright Americans who simply cant afford insurance of any kind.

I suppose the issue really comes down to whether you believe insurance is a right for everyone or a privilege only to be enjoyed by the wealthy.

I dont understand where the whole "insurance is really only affordable to people who don't need it." Just because people are wealthy they arent allowed to have health insurance? you think wealthy people dont work hard?

[CumminsJeep]

You keep bringing up health care as your only real argument for socialism because anyone who disagrees with you will look like an inconsiderate bastard.

But your idea of a splash of socialism here and there is not something that is "all good" as they say. Society is like a drug user, and their drugs of choice and government run programs. Give people free health care, and everyone's ecstatic for awhile, then the buzz wears off and they come back for more. And as they come back for a better fix, they begin to see the government as the sole provider for what they need, similar to the way a user sees his dealer.

As this process continues, the basic principles of self-preservation and survival of the fittest begin to degrade in the American mind, and the basic American ideals of staking one's own claim in society are lost. The spiral will continue until Americans have all become junkies, unable to exist without the government. It is at this point where the government becomes the true totalitarian state, but at that point, no one will notice or care.

So please, we don't live in a perfect world, bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people. Nothing will ever work as its intended.

bingo

[iant333]

You keep bringing up health care as your only real argument for socialism because anyone who disagrees with you will look like an inconsiderate bastard.

But your idea of a splash of socialism here and there is not something that is "all good" as they say. Society is like a drug user, and their drugs of choice and government run programs. Give people free health care, and everyone's ecstatic for awhile, then the buzz wears off and they come back for more. And as they come back for a better fix, they begin to see the government as the sole provider for what they need, similar to the way a user sees his dealer.

As this process continues, the basic principles of self-preservation and survival of the fittest begin to degrade in the American mind, and the basic American ideals of staking one's own claim in society are lost. The spiral will continue until Americans have all become junkies, unable to exist without the government. It is at this point where the government becomes the true totalitarian state, but at that point, no one will notice or care.

So please, we don't live in a perfect world, bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people. Nothing will ever work as its intended.

I would say the same thing about unemployment insurance, wage restrictions and labor laws and the like, I really don't consider myself an actual Socialist but they have some good ideas. I like Libertarian Populist.

I don't think relying on the government for a few minor things is going to turn us into a bunch of lazy losers.

I dont understand where the whole "insurance is really only affordable to people who don't need it." Just because people are wealthy they arent allowed to have health insurance? you think wealthy people dont work hard?

Everyone would have insurance regardless of how much they make, im saying now that poor people dont.

And to be honest, maybe your idea and my idea of wealthy are different but the average hedge fund manager, wall street investor, big corporate exec isn't working hard long days to rake in their millions. I definitely wouldn't say that all wealthy people dont work, many do, but also many dont.

In the words of George Carlin:

The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there... just to scare the shit out of the middle class. Keep 'em showing up at those jobs.

Then we agree to disagree and leave it at that. I'll continue to poison my mind with the belief that wiretapping and monitoring internet and phone lines is socialistic and you can do the opposite, regardless of how it affects the free market.

That really isnt even the big issue, more of a segway into this discussion.




And now I'm really going to sleep, because I work and go to school like a good American.

[Buffalo Phil]

Now, that really boggles my mind. Do you honestly believe the Rich pay NO taxes???

[Magilla]

[CumminsJeep]

And to be honest, maybe your idea and my idea of wealthy are different but the average hedge fund manager, wall street investor, big corporate exec isn't working hard long days to rake in their millions. I definitely wouldn't say that all wealthy people dont work, many do, but also many dont.

In the words of George Carlin:

The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there... just to scare the shit out of the middle class. Keep 'em showing up at those jobs.

you serious? whatever happened to tax brackets? isnt that what shows the different classes? and dont the people in the upper class pay more than the middle class? just because they work white collar jobs, doesnt mean they dont pay taxes. im in school now for automotive management which is a 4 year bachelors degree. now, i could have just done the 2 year automotive degree and turned wrenches until i could afford to open up something of my own. however, with a bachelors, i could start out as a service writer, or something along those lines, making double what a mechanic makes. like i said, if you work hard, you can get to where you want to be, have a family,live in a nice house, have your toys, etc etc. isnt that the american dream?

I feel that is going out the window these days....

[Nick]

I really don't consider myself an actual Socialist but they have some good ideas. I like Libertarian Populist.

How can you support socialism and libertarianism at the same time? They are complete opposites if you go by what they actually are, not some fake hybrid.

I don't think relying on the government for a few minor things is going to turn us into a bunch of lazy losers.

Now health care, unemployment, and labor laws are minor issues? Before they were the key platforms of your argument.

And to be honest, maybe your idea and my idea of wealthy are different but the average hedge fund manager, wall street investor, big corporate exec isn't working hard long days to rake in their millions. I definitely wouldn't say that all wealthy people dont work, many do, but also many dont.

Those people didn't have to work hard to get to where they are at? If its so easy, why isn't everyone a multi-millionaire? Those guys in finance work incredibly hard to become as successful as they are.

And wealthy people pay, and have paid, plenty in taxes.

[Vehicleless]

Sadly this all ties back to 9/11.

Since then there has been the huge push to capture terrorists and to "make the country safer" this included the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, Invading Afghanistan, Invading Iraq, just to name a few.

One of the things that terrorist groups use is the internet to display their videos and run message boards. The government has a couple agencies that are used to track these message boards infiltrate them and report anything bad and to try to shut them down.

The United States has laws that allow a lot of crazy things to happen, for example the KKK, Neo-Nazis, Flag burning. I do not agree with these things but they are all protected in the constitution. like 10 years ago there was a KKK march down the center of NYC, freedom to assemble.

This bill that is being proposed will still have to pass through the house and Senate. in my opinion the probability that this bill was written with the sole intention to track every american is 0%. People might not agree with the bill but in my thought it is a natural progression for the defense of america after homeland security and the Patriot Act.

Sadly after 9/11 some shit was passed through the government that would probably not have passed normally, but people were scared, we didn't know how dumb W was and so it was passed.

you can talk about right being stripped before, and it was in a time of fear. look at McCarthism.

P.S. I think the Scandanavian countries usually are rated to have the happiest citizens in the world. Everyone I know who has been from there have been happy, fit, people who do not think they need to flee their country

[HeavyMetal]

we didn't know how dumb W was and so it was passed.

I have one thing to submit to this discussion

George W Bush is not dumb. Seriously.

This is the most tired/retarded insult. I have never seen someone so 'spun' to seem unintelligent through the media.