Ecotec Buggy

[customcreationsllc]

Assuming you are still gonna run a 44 center in a trussed 30 housing with those super sweet CV shafts.......

With the shafts i know there will be no issue in strength up front except for the dana 30 unit bearings.

Have you considered machining something like a cross between a unit bearing and a ford style hub?? something that will easily mate to the knuckle but just use regular wheel bearings and throw some drive flanges (cause of the ARB, no need for lockouts) on the outside?

Also, on a side note.... i know the ecotec will be fine for WE-Rock and RCrocs, but don't you think you may end up alittle underpowered in a race setting like KOH, RC race series, etc.

That is exactly what I'm thinking HP44 center with trussed/gusseted 30 housing Ball joints and RCV shafts with Unit bearings.

The front axle has given me the most trouble tying to decide what to use.
I'll look into the D30 C's with hubs. I was hoping if I keep the tires inboard a lot of back spacing it will load the bearing more centered and I hope they last longer.

I have ford Hubs I have to take a picture of both to me visually the D30 outers looks stronger than the Ford, I have both in my garage side by side.
The D30 ball joints have a larger vertical split with a larger split the moments are reduced the whole torque = force x distance further distance less force thingy.
Same thing when it comes to bearings, hubs separate the bearing reducing the moment between them therefore increasing the life on the bearings, plus you can reset the preload in the bearings.
Watch http://www.pirate4x4.com/tv/live8.php advance adapters talks about bearing split with there atlas shorty tail housings. And spidertrax talks about there new spindle/hubs. I don't like how close the bearings are to each other is it is basically the same as a unit bearing at that point.

I like the idea cross between the 2 put the hubs on the D30 knuckle I'll look into it. Don't they already sell this, hub upgrades?
I'm not going to make custom hubs or spindles that is just way too large piece of metal to start a lot of $$ for raw material. If I can modify or just use the ford spindles/hubs that might be doable.

The spidertrax that you linked are just f450 hubs redrilled for 5 on 5.5. I thought about using that. I would need an outer axle that can work with it, I'm not sure if RCV makes one. I really don't think I can go with 35spline D60 outers I don't think there is enough room inside the C it is very close with the D44 RCV shafts.


The spidertrax C/knuckle would be awesome but big $$. They have problems with there spherical rod ends instead of ball joints they are loaded sideways and wear out quickly they have upgraded to larger spherical rod ends we'll see how those go probably better than D30 ball joints though.
Spidertrax is my inspiration to fabricate my own knuckle using the D30 C's I can gusset the C but the knuckle becomes week plus welding on High steer arms is kind of sketchy so if I fabricate my own knuckle I can eliminate all those problems and maybe sell some knuckles to you guys.


Also, on a side note, I'll explain my Horsepower theory in another post.

[customcreationsllc]

Just for a note for my buggy.
I'm trying to build something that is cost effective and fun. I don't intend to be the front runner I cannot afford to compete at Shannon Cambel etc, level. I just want a competitive rig that I can have fun in right now I hit my limit with the CJ cannot drive fast cannot play with the big dogs.

I'm hoping this rig will let me have fun That said I'll try to explain MY take on Horsepower, I'm not as experienced as a lot of guys when it comes to this department feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

HORSEPOWER = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
More HP more heat, larger the cooling system.
More HP the more expensive the spark and fuel management systems get, and harder to tune.
More HP the stronger the engine internals need to be.
More HP more torque the stronger everything needs to be built, Bigger, Clutch, Transmission, T-case, Drive shaft, etc.
More HP the more oiling it needs.

How often do you really think those guys use all 400-600 HP. Straight aways and sandy areas. I was in the back half of the trail at RCQ the fast wood trails none of them were driving as fast as that engine would push them.

Oiling is my biggest concern, I've asked this question a couple times before like on Racedesert, What do people do to make sure the engine is getting oil when they way off camber or vertical?

Most common answer nothing my engine runs on no oil and its finemost of those guys run junkyard motors. Which makes sense if you're not pushing the same HP you don't need as much oil. The harder you push down the piston the faster it cuts through the oil barrier, and into the metal you start your engine with no oil pressure but very little HP is developed before the oil pressure comes up. So that all make sense to me.
Second answer is baffled oil pan I think this works great until you loss all the oil that was in the baffled area the baffles don't force the oil back the sump. I would say good for quick off camber.
Next answer accusump or similar systemIf you read accusump they hold like 2qts of oil, you can either dump all the oil immediately as it looses oil or restricted it to only dump in a little bit of oil, some oil is better than no oil. the best accusumps tech says it 30 sec. How many of you have been stuck off camber for more than 30 sec?
Combine baffled oil pan and accusump I'll give you a minute.

Last that is rarely mentioned in offroad rock crawling is the dry sump I think it is because of how expensive they are, the pumps start at $1200.
But this would be my first mod for making HP no sense of wasting money to make the engine push more power if it is just going to blow up.
Now I talked to a dry sump expert on Racedezert and what I would like to do is to place the dry sump pickups on the side of the block or even the valve cover. The engine can always get oil. My biggest concern was wasting the dry sump stage because it will very rarely get oil. He told me there will be enough oil vapor to keep that stage happy.
Next hurdle would be to figure out how to get the pickup in the oil tank back to the engine. Need some sort of flexible pickup and that is as far as I got.

I am more concerned with RPM than HP.
Anyone know gearing knows 3:1 T-case will multiply your torque by 3 how much torque do you need to move your tires at that point. Quick math 3.83 first gear 2.72 T-case 5.38 Axle gears, 56:1 so 100 ft_lbs at the engine is 5600 ft_lbs at the wheels How much do you think it takes to move the rig or spin the tires probably not that much. That would be the same as 272 ft-lb engine in High Range.

My theory is that RPM is more important. If your at the bottom of the rock face and you jump on the gas, you can only go as fast as not spinning the tires then you don't have time to shift so you only have that gear to get that rig going as fast as possible high revving engine will allow the tires to spin faster at the top. This would be the same as a big HP engine starting off in a higher gear and not revving the engine as high.

I'm not say HP is not needed I'm saying I think I can be competitive without it, not looking to be the front runner. Not yet.

The ecotec red lines at 6500rpm with the balance shaft in, remove the balance shaft and install stiffer valve springs and you get way higher revs no one can tell me the exact number. All I can find is that the heads are good to 11,000 rpms.

Here is a good read on the Ecotec motors http://members.shaw.ca/warped00/bcjbody/buildbook.html

And here for more information www.ecotecforum.com

[customcreationsllc]

Weight you have to be realistic 2500lbs is a very hard goal to hit hell it is hard to get under 3000lbs, my CJ5 is 3600lbs

Tires my 35" are 110#
Axles front 350# rear 250#
Engine 300# with accessories.
Transmission 150# with clutch and all.
T-case# 100# Dana 300 is just over 80 give me a little room for shifters and mounts.
Drive shafts 60# haven't weighed them but they have to be close to 30# a piece.
Fuel 90#
Me and passenger 450lbs gear seats.
So its like 2500# without suspension and frame.

[Zullock Holmes]

i think you have a good point with the motor, cost effective is probably the biggest thing right now, and it will probably treat you well in the crawling events.

As far as the RCQ, i think that being able to do 40-50 in the high speed wouldn't hurt you in the end as long as you could blast through the crawling sections with little issues.

Either way, this is gonna be an awesome build, and i'm waiting to see what you do for a front axle set-up, because it looks as though something everyone on here may be able to benefit from in some way seeing as most of us still run front 30's.

[Even]

Any reason you chose a 3-link rear instead of 4-link? Space constraints I'm assuming?

Looks awesome so far man, I'll be following this for sure.

[Burton58]

if you are looking for lightweight and rpms put a turbo 13b rotary in it. capable of making 2-400hp and revving upwards of 10k rpm. plus they are tiny and weigh nothing

[customcreationsllc]

Any reason you chose a 3-link rear instead of 4-link? Space constraints I'm assuming?

Looks awesome so far man, I'll be following this for sure.

Yes space constraints plus the roll centers on 3 links are usually a little higher (middle of pan hard) and I like the pan hard bar to take the lateral forces.

Triangulated 4 links take up so much real estate.

[customcreationsllc]

if you are looking for lightweight and rpms put a turbo 13b rotary in it. capable of making 2-400hp and revving upwards of 10k rpm. plus they are tiny and weigh nothing

The ecotec can make over 300hp with a turbo and remove the balance shaft and add stiffer valve springs per GM it will rev well over 6500 no one is able to give a real red line number.

Do you know any adapters for the 13b, plus the, price, availability, aftermarket support, and I never known rotaries to be reliable I could be wrong.

There are tons of Ecotecs for $400 in the junk yard hard to beat that.

When I first started out looking for engines I knew I wanted a small light weight high revving engine. I ended up with the Ecotec I started looking at Honda B series but they spin backwards and if I use the trans axle it will never come out of low range.
The Honda K series spins the correct direction but kind of expensive and adapters are hard to find. There were a couple other engines but availability is high on my must haves, along with aftermarket supports, adapters etc.

[customcreationsllc]

spent a little time modeling.
I got the seats in Corbeau XP the same ones in my CJ.
I also got the ORI struts modeled up after the long coil over discussion we had.
While ORI might not be the best ultimate performance but good, easily tunable and simple mounting because I will not need sway bars or bump stops with the ORI struts.

I also have all the links assembled so that I can flex the suspension.
Right now everything interferes give me a little time I'll have everything adjust to clear and work together.
Wish me Luck.

[#DEZERTDAD]

[customcreationsllc]

No, this project is not dead.

I just picked up an Ecotec from an 04 Ion.

I just verified that it bolts together.
I found that the 93 and up AX-15 pilot bearing is to big for the crank, the shaft is almost the same size as the hole so if I was to make a bushing it would pretty dam thin I might be able to get something to work but not worth the effort.
The 92 and down pilot bearing works perfect so I just need to use a 92 and down AX-15.
The 92 down has a spacer bushing that goes on the outside of the bearing the bearing Dia fits perfectly into the Ecotec Crank.



The AX-15 input shaft length looks really good the me too.
Next I need to get the clutch to work.




Here are my rear axle HP60 with TJ 35spline shafts obviously needs work but a good starting point.

[#DEZERTDAD]

Can't wait to see more pics!

[LittleD]

i see the same pic twice

[Wide-J]

With the concern over the weight, why not go single seater? Any thoughts about doing rear steer? Any thoughts on a rear mounted engine?

[customcreationsllc]

With the concern over the weight, why not go single seater? Any thoughts about doing rear steer? Any thoughts on a rear mounted engine?

I'm not just going for light weight sub 2000lbs is almost impossible, anything over that still needs 35 spline axles.

Lighter is better.
I'm going for a cost effective fun buggy, more HP=more $$
And I want all available off the shelf parts no super custom 1 of a kind adapters/parts.

Rear steer= weight, complexity and money and packaging becomes an issue, more stuff to go wrong.

Rear engine very nice for desert you want the CG in the back plus it also leaves a lot of room for the front steering axle. But you cannot run a standard the shifter would be backwards possible but weird.
For rock crawling/ climbing you want the weight up front.
I was originally going to go with a Honda mid engine cheap light but the your are always stuck in 4:1 low range no high speed no street.

I also want to make this street legal. 2 seater just fun to have a passenger.

An ultimate race only buggy would be different but I don't have the money for that. I don't expect to win KOH with this buggy just be competitive have fun. Especially in the east coast HP is not as big of a factor.

I hope to build a solid buggy and be able to duplicate it. The first one is the hardest to build if it runs good I'll start building more.

As for the drive train prices.
Ecotec=$400 all day at the salvage yard
Bellhousing $250new I got it for $100 used.
Flywheel $20
Starter $15
Transmission AX-15 $200 or less at times.
T-case bunch of options, almost free D300 NP231 etc. but leaving enough room for the Atlas.

So engine 275lbs with compressor alternator fully dressed. tranny 110lbs T-case 80lbs flywheel 45lbs add a little more for clutch and starter. 500lb full drive line. most guys engine weighs that much. Auto guys don't like to include cooler fans shifter etc. to their weight.

Plus smaller drive train is easier to package, standard no cooler heat is the number 1 problem for buggies.

Just trying to keep it simple cost effective but still kick a$$ at the same time.

I can go on for ever about this.

~Justin