To those who believe in Conspiracys

[HeavyMetal]

I think a lot goes on "behind the curtain" that the general public can not be told. Not because it is evil, but because the average person just doesnt need to know everything, or cant put everything in to perspective.... so a "consolidated truth" comes out.

It happens at a much smaller scale in most branches of the gov.

I agree with this so much. So so much.

Personally I am absolutely fine with that.

[Carlleen]

Looking back we can see lots of our mistakes. We can always look back and see things that have happened and wish that they happened a certain way.
What if in early 2001 if george bush had taken the memo about bin laden super serious, what if we had nuked the oil spill in the Gulf, what if we had not given Bin Laden the weapons in the 80s, what if John McCain had not picked sarah Palin as a running mate, what if Barac Obama had not made the 2004 speech at the DNC?

[Buffalo Phil]

Anyone not interested in intelligent discussion, fast forward past my post.

i think a lot of people look at it this way, how there were "no" "wmds" so we are wrong in our actions.

Truths: You and I dont know what WMDs there were. WMD is such a general-use "buzz word" to label any number of weapons available. MANY THINGS can be a WMD. Maybe there were some, maybe there werent. Maybe that was the reason for invasion, maybe it wasnt. There are plenty "reports" out there that go one way or the other. Saddam Hussein HAD WMDs, that is not up for debate...it was basic fact. Little known fact: just because the intel was wrong (if it even was) doesnt mean the circumstances were made up as a conspiracy. Have you (you in general) ever made a mistake? Take that mistake, put it under a microscope in front of 6 billion people. This is United States foreign policy on a daily basis, and why a lot of it is kept secret.

What I do believe is something a lot of people either have trouble accepting, or do not want to accept. The world is a very harsh place, and survival of the fittest applies these days just as much as it did at the dawn of time with sticks, rocks, and bows. The United States, does what it needs to do, whether it be at the wishes of its people or not, to stay secure in their place on the top. It may not always be rainbows and butterflies, it may also not always be "noble", however I do believe the United States is good, and does its best (with great success) to be noble and good, in most cases.
No one got to power or to the top without making enemies. That isnt to say all in power are evil, but certainly they have taken the reigns and done what is necessary. There is a difference between people like Hitler in power, and people like the US Govt. Anyone who cannot recognize that distinction, IMO, is plainly an idiot or a fool. Take what I said before and try your best to apply it to War lords, dictators,and so on, but really you are ignoring the dividing line that exists in common sense.

Do I believe the United States orchestrated 9/11? Not a snowflakes chance in Hell.
Do I believe we invaded Iraq for (again, a super stupid buzzword with no real meaning) "WMDs" ? I am not sure, though I do believe that was at the very least a driving factor. What I AM sure of is, we didnt invade Iraq for shits and giggles, or to make george bush or whatever other "fall guy" rich. Washington isnt run by evil robots, these people are human beings. There arent 1 or 2 washington robots making the calls. There is an entire assortment of human beings, just like you and I, being part of the decision process. This country did not arrange jet liners full of civilians to crash into our own major landmark city, felling two of our most recognizable landmark buildings, killing thousands of our own in the process, and changing the world as we know it for a long time, in an attempt to make money, only to risk and destroy the lives of countless of our Marines and soldiers overseas in a resulting war, which in turn cost billions and billions. Think about it.

I think it boils down to: the people who complain, bitch, and moan about "wars for oil" still get in their car every day, and are a part of modern life driven by fossil fuels, and general live a life of leisure compared to those without those things...yet the very conflicts they complain of, secure them these resources to stay on top and maintain their way of life.

Is a "war for oil" morally sound? Maybe not. Is it absolutely necessary for the United States to maintain itself in the present day, you betcha. Use "war for oil" as a basis for any of these arguments.

You know...it's funny, every time someone brings up the 'War For Oil' I love to argue it because it reminds me of past wars and most video games today.

Think about it, wars of the past have been fought over land and natural resources to expand and make the citizens of the country happy. This is no new concept. What blows my mind is that we have the resources in this country to harvest the natural resources we need, but our own government agencies (EPA) prevent that from happening, so we go to other countries. Big deal. Waaah. We are fighting a war over oil. Fucking good, we need that oil and we don't need Arabs. Case closed.

Besides, if no one ever fought wars over natural resources, you think StarCraft and Command and Conquer would exist? Granted, you are fighting to eliminate your enemy, but the resources (minerals and gas) are just as valuable as anything else. If you have more resources that your opponent and control more mineral fields and gas geysers, you will most likely win...unless of course you spam Venoms but that is besides the point.

War over natural resources is absolutely nothing new and there is nothing Barbaric about it. pseudo-intellectuals and peace loving liberals fail to realize that we as humans have always been and will always be Humanity - a species always looking to advance itself by obtaining and harvesting natural resources.

[HeavyMetal]

even at the most primitive level...animals are territorial and will kill to secure their territory, or their prey from others. a peaceful utopia where everyone holds hands and shares will never be a reality, it just simply isnt how the game is played

[Buffalo Phil]

even at the most primitive level...animals are territorial and will kill to secure their territory, or their prey from others. a peaceful utopia where everyone holds hands and shares will never be a reality, it just simply isnt how the game is played

This is pretty much why I hate John Lennon. If I hear another fucking song about how everyone should learn to live in peace, I'm going to drop ship the artist to the fucking bowels of Africa and have them start there.

Have fun telling those War Lord, the Somalians and the Libyans to fucking live in peace. Stupid fucking hippies.

There are two kinds of people in this world: those who want to build a peaceful society and those who want to pillage it.

[Hydra]

Th assumption that people in power of our nation are unselfish or unbiased as to their own personal security and gains is plain ignorant, they're human. Just like you said Will people make mistakes, and it id a natural desire to protect ones property even if that means killing.

I agree that 9/11 was not a setup by the man, but to so blindly have faith in the motives and intentions of our leaders is to fall in to the same scenario as other dictatorships and fallen nations have done

[HeavyMetal]

Th assumption that people in power of our nation are unselfish or unbiased as to their own personal security and gains is plain ignorant, they're human. Just like you said Will people make mistakes, and it id a natural desire to protect ones property even if that means killing.

I agree that 9/11 was not a setup by the man, but to so blindly have faith in the motives and intentions of our leaders is to fall in to the same scenario as other dictatorships and fallen nations have done

my faith is no more blind than your dissent

[Buffalo Phil]

I think some people here need to brush up on some history pre-WWII era.

[LittleD]

Im not trying to say the the President planned all this shit out, im just saying there were/are tons of signs that our gov't just passes off and fucks us in the long run.

Jon, do i think the gov't would kill a mass of civilians for no reason? Hell no, but the gov't doesn't see us all as individuals, they see us as the pop that makes up our country, there is tons of greed in the world today no doubt about it, and i personally think if it came down to some civilians or the country as whole, they would chose to save the country not individuals.

The things that the media won't show, are the testimony's of the firefighters they swear on their lives that when they were cleaning up the rebel, they found pilliars cut on the bottom of the trade centers. Am i saying that WE did that? no, but something like that doesn't just go un noticed being the fucking world trade centers.

[Nick]

Im not trying to say the the President planned all this shit out, im just saying there were/are tons of signs that our gov't just passes off and fucks us in the long run.

Can you provide examples to these so-called signs?

if it came down to some civilians or the country as whole, they would chose to save the country not individuals.

Clearly, but how does that relate to the terrorist attacks? How did "letting 9/11 happen" save the country?

The things that the media won't show, are the testimony's of the firefighters they swear on their lives that when they were cleaning up the rebel, they found pilliars cut on the bottom of the trade centers. Am i saying that WE did that? no, but something like that doesn't just go un noticed being the fucking world trade centers.

First off, the media is very quick to bring up things that the government may be hiding, its what they do. Also, considering the twin towers fell from the top down, what do these alleged "cut pillars" have to do with anything? You're always going to have people claiming they uncovered some hidden clue, doesn't mean what they say is true.

People criticizing the government left and right has gotten a tad out of hand, especially when the claims stem from theories that aren't based on any facts what so ever. If you really think that the US government is trying to pull off some giant scam to benefit a few hundred people while screwing over millions, then why don't you go live somewhere else so you won't have to worry about it? Also, the US isn't a dictatorship or any other form of government that has resulted in a "failed state," the citizens elect these people, so if you really do have a problem with them, vote differently or run yourself, its a free country.

[Ruepart Hoaxley]

A skyscraper falls, and some mysteriously Sawzalled pillars managed to conveniently survive in perfect shape for Michael Moore to make a mockumentary about.

[Even]

Th assumption that people in power of our nation are unselfish or unbiased as to their own personal security and gains is plain ignorant, they're human. Just like you said Will people make mistakes, and it id a natural desire to protect ones property even if that means killing.

I agree that 9/11 was not a setup by the man, but to so blindly have faith in the motives and intentions of our leaders is to fall in to the same scenario as other dictatorships and fallen nations have done

Claiming the gov't is greedy and selfish is a far fucking cry from accusing them of being batshit crazy enough to slaughter their own civilians.

I hate this fucking thread.

[Hydra]

I hate this fucking thread.

X2, y'all a bunch of ruffsfuff nutswingers

[Vehicleless]

people will try to manipulate the government if the can. at one point some people were almost able to use the government to corner the gold market, but the president realized what was up and was able to prevent that from happening at a great cost to the US.

the MSM does ignore a lot of things, they do pretty much follow the the same things.

phil you know I love to read, what pre ww1 stuff are you recommending.

I am currently reading about Theodore Roosevelt. He is the most bad ass motherfucker! If you want to see know why our navy is so big, look to Theodore, who first recommended planes for use by the navy, look to Theodore, built a fucking canal, Theodore, fought in a war, Theodore. negotiated many treaties, Theodore!